Viktor Kagan mumwe wevane ruzivo uye vakabudirira veRussia psychotherapist. Avamba kurovedza muSt. Petersburg muma1970, mumakore apfuura akakwanisa kusimbisa kukwanirisa kwake kukurusa muUnited States. Uye Viktor Kagan muzivi uye mudetembi. Uye pamwe ichi ndicho chikonzero nei achikwanisa kutsanangura nehunyanzvi uye nemazvo icho chaicho chaicho chebasa renyanzvi yepfungwa, iro rinobata nenyaya dzakajeka dzakadai sekuziva, hunhu - uye kunyangwe mweya.
Psychology: Chii, mukuona kwako, chakachinja muRussian psychotherapy kana ichienzaniswa nenguva yawakatanga?
Victor Kagan: Ndingati vanhu vachinja kutanga. Uye nokuda kwezviri nani. Kunyange makore 7-8 apfuura, pandakaitisa mapoka ezvidzidzo (apo psychotherapists ivo pachavo vakafananidza zviitiko uye nzira dzebasa), bvudzi rangu rakamira. Vatengi vakauya nezviitiko zvavo vakabvunzurudzwa pamusoro pemamiriro ezvinhu semupurisa wepanzvimbo uye akaraira maitiro "akarurama" kwavari. Zvakanaka, zvimwe zvinhu zvakawanda zvisingagone kuitwa mukurapa kwepfungwa zvakaitwa nguva dzese.
Uye zvino vanhu vanoshanda zvakanyanya "vakachena", vanova vanokwanisa, vane manyorero avo, ivo, sezvavanotaura, vanonzwa neminwe yavo zvavari kuita, uye havatarise kumashure nekusingaperi pamabhuku uye madhayagiramu. Vanotanga kuzvipa rusununguko rwekushanda. Kunyangwe, pamwe, uyu hausi mufananidzo wechinangwa. Nekuti avo vanoshanda zvisina kunaka kazhinji havaendi kumapoka. Havana nguva yekudzidza uye kusava nechokwadi, vanoda kuwana mari, ivo vakakura mukati mavo, ndeapi mamwe mapoka aripo. Asi kubva kune avo vandinoona, fungidziro ingori iyo - inonakidza kwazvo.
Uye kana tikataura nezvevatengi uye matambudziko avo? Pane zvachinja here?
VC.: Mukupera kwema1980 uye kunyangwe mukutanga kwema1990, vanhu vane zviratidzo zvekiriniki zvakajeka vanowanzokumbira rubatsiro: hysterical neurosis, asthenic neurosis, obsessive-compulsive disorder ... inotaura zvakafanana - classical neurosis yave isingawanzo museum.
Unozvitsanangura sei?
VC.: Ndinofunga kuti pfungwa yacho ndeyekuchinja kwenyika yose mumararamiro, iyo inonzwika zvakanyanya muRussia. Sosaiti yemubatanidzwa yeSoviet yaive, inoratidzika kwandiri, hurongwa hwayo hwemasaini ekufona. Nzanga yakadaro inogona kufananidzwa nesvosve. Svosve raneta, harichagoni kushanda, rinoda kumborara pasi kuti rirege kudyiwa, rikandwa sebhora. Kare, muchiitiko ichi, chiratidzo kune chisvosve chaiva ichi: Ndiri kurwara. Ndine hysterical fit, ndine hysterical blindness, ndine neurosis. Unoonaka, pavachatumira mbatatisi kunotanha, vachandinzwira tsitsi. Ndiko kuti, kune rumwe rutivi, munhu wese aifanira kunge akagadzirira kupa hupenyu hwake kunzanga. Asi kune rumwe rutivi, iyi nzanga chaiyo yakatusa vanyajambwa. Uye kana akanga asati awana nguva yekusiya zvachose hupenyu hwake, vaigona kumuendesa kune sanatorium - kuti awane kurapwa.
Uye nhasi hakuna chisvosve icho. Mitemo yashanduka. Uye kana ndikatumira chiratidzo chakadaro, ndinobva ndarasikirwa. Urikurwara here? Saka imhosva yako, hausi kuzvichengeta zvakanaka. Uye kazhinji, sei munhu achifanira kurwara kana kune mishonga yakanaka kudaro? Zvichida hauna mari inovakwanira? Saka, iwe hautomboziva kushanda!
Isu tinorarama munharaunda umo psychology inorega kungoita chiitiko kune zviitiko uye zvakanyanya uye zvinozvisarudzira uye hupenyu pachahwo. Izvi hazvigone asi kushandura mutauro unotaurwa neuroses, uye maikorosikopu yekutarisisa inowana kugadziriswa kukuru, uye psychotherapy inosiya madziro emasangano ekurapa uye inokura nekupa zano vanhu vane hutano hwepfungwa.
Uye ndiani anganzi akajairwa nevatengi ve psychotherapists?
VC.: Iwe wakamirira mhinduro: "vakadzi vakafinhwa vevapfumi vebhizinesi"? Zvakanaka, chokwadi, avo vane mari uye nguva yeizvi vanonyanya kuda kuenda kunobatsirwa. Asi kazhinji hapana macustomers chaiwo. Kune varume nevakadzi, vapfumi nevarombo, vakuru nevaduku. Kunyange zvazvo vanhu vekare vachiri vashoma vanoda. Sezvineiwo, vandaishanda navo vekuAmerica neni takaitisana nharo zvakanyanya panyaya iyi nezvekuti munhu angave mutengi we psychotherapist kwenguva yakareba sei. Uye ivo vakasvika pakugumisa kuti kusvika panguva yaanonzwisisa majee. Kana pfungwa yekuseka yakachengetedzwa, iwe unogona kushanda.
Asi nekuseka kunoitika kunyangwe muhuduku zvakaipa ...
VC.: Hongu, uye iwe hauzive kuti zvakaoma sei kushanda nevanhu vakadaro! Asi zvakakomba, saka, hongu, pane zviratidzo sechiratidzo che psychotherapy. Toti ndinotya matatya. Apa ndipo panogona kubatsira kurapa maitiro. Asi kana tikataura nezvehunhu, ipapo ini ndinoona midzi miviri, iripo zvikonzero zvekutendeukira kune psychotherapist. Merab Mamardashvili, muzivi wandinokwereta zvikuru mukunzwisisa munhu, akanyora kuti munhu ari "kuzviunganidza". Anoenda kune psychotherapist apo iyi nzira inotanga kukundikana. Mashoko anotsanangurwa nemunhu haana kukosha zvachose, asi anonzwa sokuti abva munzira yake. Ichi ndicho chikonzero chekutanga.
Uye chechipiri ndechekuti munhu ari ega pamberi pemamiriro ake aya, haana wekutaura naye. Pakutanga anoedza kuzviongorora pachake, asi haakwanisi. Kuedza kutaura neshamwari - hazvishande. Nemhaka yokuti shamwari muukama naye dzine zvadzinofarira, hadzigoni kuva dzisina kwadzakarerekera, dzinozvishandira dzimene, pasinei nokuti dzine mutsa sei. Mudzimai kana murume haanganzwisisi kana, ivo vanewo zvavanofarira, uye haugone kuvaudza zvese zvachose. Kazhinji, hapana wekutaura naye - hapana wekutaura naye. Uye zvino, mukutsvaga mweya mupenyu wausingakwanise kuva wega mudambudziko rako, anouya kune psychotherapist ...
…basa raani rinotanga nekumuteerera?
VC.: Basa rinotanga chero kupi zvako. Pane ngano yakadaro yezvokurapa pamusoro peMarshal Zhukov. Pane imwe nguva akarwara, uye, chokwadi, chiedza chikuru chakatumirwa kumba kwake. Chiedza chakasvika, asi marshal haana kuzvifarira. Vakatumira chiedza chechipiri, chechitatu, chechina, akadzinga vanhu vose ... Munhu wose ari kurasikirwa, asi vanofanira kurapwa, Marshal Zhukov mushure mezvose. Mumwe purofesa ari nyore akatumirwa. Akaonekwa, Zhukov anobuda kundosangana. Muzvinafundo anokanda bhachi rake mumaoko emurwi ndokupinda mumba. Uye apo Zhukov, aturika jasi rake, achipinda shure kwake, purofesa anogutsurira kwaari: "Gara pasi!" Muzvinafundo uyu akazove chiremba weMarshal.
Ini ndinotaura izvi kune chokwadi chekuti basa rinotanga nechero chinhu. Pane chinhu chinonzwika neinzwi remutengi paanofona, chimwe chinhu chinoonekwa nenzira yake paanopinda ... Chishandiso chikuru chemurapi wepfungwa ndiye murapi wepfungwa pachake. Ini ndiri chiridzwa. Sei? Nokuti ndizvo zvandinonzwa uye zvandinoita. Kana ndikagara pamberi pemurwere uye musana wangu unotanga kurwadza, zvinoreva kuti ndakaita ndega, nekurwadziwa uku. Uye ndine nzira dzekuzvitarisa, kubvunza - zvinorwadza here? Ihwo hupenyu hwakazara, muviri kumuviri, ruzha kune ruzha, kunzwa kune kunzwa. Ini ndiri chimbo chekuedza, ndiri chimbo chekupindira, ndinoshanda neshoko.
Uyezve, paunenge uchishanda nemurwere, hazvibviri kuita sarudzo ine musoro yemazwi, kana iwe uchifunga nezvazvo - kurapwa kwapera. Asi neimwe nzira ndinozviitawo. Uye mupfungwa yangu, ndinoshandawo neni pachangu: Ini ndakavhurika, ndinofanira kupa murwere maitiro asina kudzidza: murwere anogara achinzwa kana ndichiimba rwiyo rwakanyatsodzidziswa. Kwete, ndinofanira kupa chaizvo maitiro angu, asi inofanirawo kuva yekurapa.
Zvose izvi zvingadzidzwa here?
VC.: Zvinogoneka uye zvinodiwa. Kwete kuyunivhesiti, hongu. Kunyangwe kuyunivhesiti iwe unogona uye unofanirwa kudzidza zvimwe zvinhu. Kupasa bvunzo dzerezinesi muAmerica, ndakatenda maitiro avo edzidzo. A psychotherapist, anobatsira psychologist, anofanira kuziva zvakawanda. Kusanganisira anatomy uye physiology, psychopharmacology uye somatic kusagadzikana, zviratidzo zvinogona kufanana nepfungwa ... Zvakanaka, mushure mekuwana dzidzo yedzidzo - kudzidza psychotherapy pachayo. Uyezve, zvingave zvakanaka kuve nemafungiro ebasa rakadaro.
Unomboramba kushanda nemurwere here? Uye nokuda kwezvikonzero zvipi?
VC.: Zvinoitika. Dzimwe nguva ndinongoneta, dzimwe nguva chinhu chandinonzwa muzwi rake, dzimwe nguva mamiriro edambudziko. Zvakandiomera kutsanangura manzwiro aya, asi ndakadzidza kuvimba nawo. Ndinofanira kuramba kana ndikatadza kukurira maitiro ekuongorora kune munhu kana dambudziko rake. Ndinoziva kubva pane zvakaitika kwandiri kuti kunyangwe ndikaita basa nemunhu akadaro, isu tingasabudirira.
Ndokumbira utsanangure nezve "evaluative maitiro". Mune imwe bvunzurudzo iwe wakataura kuti kana Hitler akauya kuzoona chiremba wepfungwa, murapi akasununguka kuramba. Asi kana akazvipira kushanda, ipapo anofanira kumubatsira kugadzirisa matambudziko ake.
VC.: Ndizvozvo. Uye kuona pamberi pako kwete Hitler akaipa, asi munhu ari kutambura nechimwe chinhu uye anoda rubatsiro. Mune izvi, psychotherapy inosiyana kubva kune chero kumwe kutaurirana, inogadzira hukama husingawanikwe kumwe kumwe. Sei murwere achiwanzowira murudo nemurapi? Tinogona kutaura zvakawanda pamusoro pekutamisa, kupikisa… Asi murwere anongopinda muukama hwaasina kumbopinda mahuri, hukama hwerudo rwakakwana. Uye anoda kuzvichengeta chero zvodini. Ukama uhwu ndihwo hunonyanya kukosha, izvi ndizvo chaizvo zvinoita kuti psychotherapist inzwe munhu ane ruzivo rwake.
Pakuvamba chaiko kwema1990 muSt. Petersburg, mumwe murume akambofonera runhare rwevanobetsera ndokuti paaiva nemakore 15, iye neshamwari dzake vakabata vasikana manheru ndokuvabata chibharo, uye kwainakidza zvikuru. Asi ikozvino, makore mazhinji gare gare, akarangarira izvi - uye zvino haagone kugara nazvo. Akataura dambudziko racho zvakajeka: "Handigone kurarama naro." Basa remurapi nderei? Kwete kumubatsira kuzviuraya, kumuendesa kumapurisa kana kumuendesa kunopfidza pamakero ese evakabatwa. Basa nderekubatsira kujekesa chiitiko ichi iwe pachako uye kurarama nacho. Uye kuti ungararama sei uye chii chaunofanira kuita - iye achazvisarudzira.
Ndiko kuti, psychotherapy munyaya iyi inobviswa pakuedza kuita munhu ari nani?
VC.: Kuita kuti munhu ave nani harisi basa repsychotherapy zvachose. Zvadaro ngatisimudze pakarepo nhovo ye eugenics. Uyezve, nebudiriro iripo mukugadzirwa kwemajini, zvinokwanisika kugadzirisa majini matatu pano, kubvisa mana ipapo ... Uye kuve nechokwadi, isu tichaisawo akati wandei machipi ekudzora kure kubva kumusoro. Uye zvese kamwechete zvichave zvakanyanya, zvakanaka kwazvo - zvakanaka zvekuti kunyange Orwell aisatombozvirota. Psychotherapy haisi pamusoro pazvo zvachose.
Ini ndingati izvi: munhu wese anorarama hupenyu hwake, sekunge ari kuruka yavo patani pajira. Asi dzimwe nguva zvinoitika kuti unonamira tsono - asi shinda haiteveri: yakasungirirwa, pane banga pairi. Kusunungura banga iri ibasa rangu se psychotherapist. Uye rudzii rwepateni iripo - haisi yangu kuti ndisarudze. Murume anouya kwandiri kana chimwe chinhu chiri mumamiriro ake chichikanganisa rusununguko rwake rwekuzviunganidza uye kuva iye pachake. Basa rangu nderekumubatsira kuti awanezve rusununguko irworwo. Ibasa riri nyore here? Kwete. Asi - kufara.